Learning the art of negotiation with Todd Caponi

Brian Ford (00:10):

Welcome to Money and Mindset With Bright and Brian, a podcast about the connection between personal finance and your wellbeing. I'm Brian Ford, the Head of Financial Wellness at Truist, and I help people take charge of their finances so they can enjoy more control over their lives. I'm joined by my friend and co-host Bright Dickson, who is an expert in positive psychology at Truist. How are you today Bright?

Bright Dickson (00:32):

Hey Brian. I am doing great. When it comes to personal finances, there's always an element of negotiation that takes place both emotionally and financially, whether you're making a big purchase or working out a family budget. And that's why I'm really excited about today's show. We'll be joined by Todd Caponi, a sales and negotiation expert who calls himself a nerd for all things behavioral science and history. I think he's going to fit right in here, Brian. His methodology is focused on how and why transparency and honesty are the keys to successful negotiation.

Brian Ford (01:05):

Nice. I can't wait to understand how behavioral science and history mixes with transparency and negotiation. This is going to be a great conversation.

Bright Dickson (01:23):

Our guest, Todd Caponi, was the chief revenue officer of a fast-growing Chicago tech company until one day he left to write a book called The Transparency Sale, in which he says the key to winning at sales and in life is to be unexpectedly honest, vulnerable, and completely transparent. Well, that book became a bestseller, so he wrote a second book called The Transparent Sales Leader. Todd's also a keynote speaker and he teaches organizations about the importance of transparency, especially when it comes to negotiations.

Brian Ford (01:54):

Both great books. I think the psychology of negotiation, it's fascinating. So I think this is going to be fun. I also love sales. A lot of people don't know that about me. And how it interplays with our personal finance. In fact, when I was CEO of my own company, I literally wore a hat that said sales dude. And everyone knew nothing happens without sales. And sales is about relationships and a lot more, which Todd's going to get into a little bit later on.

(02:24):

So my love of personal finance, it's completely intertwined I think with sales because we're always selling and negotiating in our relationships. So learning how to do it well is an important life skill. Welcome to the show, Todd. We're so happy to have you.

Todd Caponi (02:39):

Thank you for having me. As I joke, my nerdery knows no bounds, so I can't wait to dig in.

Brian Ford (02:45):

Is that a word, nerdily?

Bright Dickson (02:47):

It is now.

Brian Ford (02:48):

Okay. I love it. That's great. And I do, I love how you describe yourself as a behavioral science nerd. Like Bright said, you're going to fit right in with us. So lets nerd out about how behavioral science connects to being transparent and then how being transparent makes you a better negotiator. Todd, give us the breakdown.

Todd Caponi (03:07):

I don't know how I got into behavioral science and decision science. I guess being in sales, it's always been interesting to think about how people engage and prioritize and make decisions. And I'll start by telling the story about what happened because as you mentioned in the intro, I was the CRO, Chief Revenue Officer, of Chicago's fastest growing tech company. And like a lunatic, I quit to write a book. And when I wrote it, I thought it might suck. And if you asked my junior year of high school English teacher, "Hey, did you hear that Todd Caponi wrote a book?" She'd still be laughing. But I guess I could start by telling you the story of what happened, is that a good place to start?

Brian Ford (03:49):

Absolutely. Yeah.

Todd Caponi (03:50):

So the company was a company called PowerReviews. We were in the review space as you could guess, and most of your listeners have probably interacted with it and didn't even know it. When you look at the product and you scroll down, there's reviews under it. And basically what happened was this, we did our little study with Northwestern University here in Chicago where I'm based, and it was just to look at, all right, when a website is acting as a salesperson, so when you go to buy stuff online, what do you do? Three data points came out of it, two of which changed my life could only happen to a nerd. The first data point that didn't change my life is we all read reviews, right? At the time it was 96%. I've never found the 4% that don't. But when we're buying something that matters that we've never bought before, almost every one of us reads the reviews first. So no surprise there.

(04:48):

But here's the two that changed my life. Number one, are you one of those weirdos that skips the five star reviews and reads the fours, threes, twos, and ones first? Well, that doesn't make you a weirdo, it makes you a human being. We all seek the negative first, which I thought was interesting. But then the last data point was a product on a five star scale that has an average review score between a 4.2 and a 4.5. That actually is the highest odds of conversion. Meaning, a product that has negative reviews right under it sells at a higher conversion rate than a product that has nothing but perfect five star reviews.

(05:31):

As a matter of fact, the products that have nothing but perfect five star reviews sell at about the same conversion rate as a product that has an average review score of a 3.25. And so I looked at that and thought, well, wait a second. That's when a website's acting as a salesperson. Why do we need the negative first? What are we trying to do and why is it that a product that appears perfect actually causes us to hesitate? And does this apply to human to human interactions and business to business type feelings? And the answers to all of that were yes. We as human beings at a subconscious level, we know that perfection doesn't exist. And here's the key thing, all of us, all of you, we don't buy when we're convinced. Meaning, if we are convinced by someone or some site or something, we're probably not happy about it 20 minutes later. We actually buy when we can predict, we are all prediction machines. And we need that negative to even process the positive.

(06:35):

So basically I started trying this out, meaning, hey, in the human to human world, leading with what we give up to be great at our core or leading with what you might not like, leading with the elephant in the room actually had magical impacts. And we became Chicago's fastest growing tech company from 2014 to 2017. And our win rates went up, our cycle lengths went down, meaning the speed to decision sped up dramatically and we became consultants and partners. Our customers stayed around longer. And I was like, wait a second, this is the closest thing to a magic bullet. Who knew that honesty sells? And so that's where all of this started. I quit, wrote the book and the rest is history.

Bright Dickson (07:23):

That is so interesting, Todd. And as a person who never actually reviews things, but who always reads pretty much all, I'll read five pages of reviews, I'm so interested in that. And it's so fascinating that we look right, we look for what's wrong with it in order to process what's right with it. I think that's fascinating and can be applied to so many other things too. And a theme in your life is keep your cards up and lead with negativity. And when I hear that, that feels like the opposite of what most people think or say when it comes to negotiation, especially in the workplace or making a large purchase or really doing anything. Because in some way everything is sales and negotiating, like dating, marriage, friendship, everything in some way has something to do with persuading someone or convincing them of something. So what does that mean? Keep your cards up and lead with negativity. And how does being transparent lead to success in negotiation?

Todd Caponi (08:28):

Well, let's start with the concept of transparency because it's an overused word. It's often confused with authenticity. And authenticity is great, be a human being. But transparency is about helping people predict. And it doesn't necessarily mean negativity, it just means embracing what's given up to be great at your core. I mean, all of you have been to an IKEA before. IKEA is the number one furniture retailer in the world for 14 straight years. And it's a nightmare, isn't it? But we don't think about it that way. When you walk into an IKEA and they have to hand you a map, you're in for hell on earth, right?

Bright Dickson (09:08):

Yeah.

Todd Caponi (09:08):

And then you can't find anything. You finally find what you're looking for. Let's say it's bedroom furniture. There's no salesperson around to help you out. You got to write down the code or take a picture of it with your phone of where you get to go to the warehouse yourself, pull the hundred pound plus box onto a cart that doesn't have breaks, which seems like a oversight to me, but that's just me. And then if you're ever looking for something fun to do, go out to the parking lot and just sit at one of the benches, grab a cooler, grab a buddy, and then bet the over under on the number of times newlyweds yell at each other as they're jamming boxes in the back of their cars. People drive home with a souvenir injury or two get, home, they open the box thinking they just left that craziness at the store. But no, the craziness has only just begun. There's a hundred plus parts. No words on the work instructions, other the word like Survata. And at the end you get this little endorphin rush going, "Hey, you know what? This looks pretty good. Hey honey, we should go back and get the end tables with this thing." What are you crazy?

(10:12):

But so much of when we think about transparency. If you have to influence anybody to do anything, leading with that cards face up approach of, hey, listen, this is what we give up to be great at our core. You're going to find it, pick it, pack it, shove it, assemble it. But we do that so that we can give you modern Scandinavian design furniture that you didn't pay much for. And there's good meatballs upstairs if you're a fan of those. But the point being is we're trying to help people predict. And when you're in any a conversation where you're trying to influence people, which at its core is a negotiation, right? It's help them predict by exposing what the give up is for that great core, and that's when the magic starts to happen.

(11:01):

I'll give you an example that I think your listeners can probably relate to. So a few years ago I was buying a new car. And it wasn't a new car, I was buying a car that's semi-used. I'm not one of those people that like to buy the fresh car because the minute you take it off the lot, it loses all its value. But I went online and I found seven cars that I would be interested in. It's Ford Explorer and different auto dealerships. I went into the first one, and again, being the nerd that I am, I thought, you know what? I want to do a little research first. When you go online, they say, what's the best way to go in and buy a used car? There's three tips that come up over and over again. Number one, never tell them how you intend to pay. If you're going to write a check, if you're going to finance it with them, if you're going to lease it, wait until the car is negotiated and then reveal that at the end. That's tip number one. Tip number two is, if you've got a trade in, don't talk about that until again, the car is fully negotiated. Wait until the end. And then number three, if there's a problem with that trade in, let them find it. Certainly don't do anything to reveal that.

(12:13):

Well, being who I am, I thought, you know what? I'm going to do the opposite. I'm going to actually take those three things and I'm going to flip them just to see what happens. Because again, I didn't really care what car I ended up with. I walked in and I told them, "Hey, I'm interested in this Ford Explorer." I meet with a sales rep. We go into his office. I start by saying, "Hey, listen, I've got my checkbook ready. I've already worked out the financing I'm going to pay when we finish this. Number two is you see that Jeep Grand Cherokee in the parking lot? That's my trade-in. And number three, do you see that smoke swirling around in the parking lot behind it? Yeah, that was coming from my car. As a matter of fact, the check engine light was not only on, but it was flashing, which I didn't know that was a feature in cars, but when it's flashing, it means your car's about to burst into flames."

(13:04):

What happened next was hilarious to me. This sales rep suddenly just opened up. He shared issues with his ADHD issues with his relationship with his father. He talked about the fact that he didn't like his job, and we talked about that. And then you know what I always say, transparency begets transparency, use it for good, not evil. I may have used it a little bit for evil. I asked him, "Hey, you know what? I've never seen a car sales person's compensation plan. What's it like?" As he's working on something, he pulls his compensation plan out of a folder and shows it to me. It just gives it to me to read. So this whole point of when we do things the opposite and we play our cards face up, it actually creates stronger relationships. It builds trust, and that transparency begets transparency and the rest is history there. And I think that's an opportunity for all of us is like, is let's stop thinking about negotiating. Let's stop thinking about influence through this lens of, "Hey, I can't tell them the truth." I believe that the opposite is true and the results speak for themselves.

Brian Ford (14:14):

That story is fascinating. And I think it helps us see how negotiation can lead, it can lead us to make the most of our finances for sure, but then also reap the emotional satisfaction from successful compromise. I mean, how did you feel when you walked away from that transaction?

Todd Caponi (14:33):

Well, it was still frustrating, I'll tell you that. And unfortunately I did. I bought the car and he ended up getting the least amount of commission that he could get.

Brian Ford (14:44):

And you got the best deal though. And he got a sale.

Todd Caponi (14:48):

Yep. That's right.

Brian Ford (14:49):

Yeah, fascinating. Interesting.

Todd Caponi (14:51):

Exactly.

Brian Ford (14:53):

I like how you walked away and certainly ended up being more successful than it could have been. But first we have to be comfortable with negotiation, which many people are not. Can you talk for a moment, Todd, about some of the common misconceptions about negotiation?

Todd Caponi (15:08):

Well, yeah. I mean this whole thing sparked for me. It was well before that Northwestern study, and it was this idea that growing up as a salesperson, I always thought it was weird that I needed a different personality to negotiate than I did to sell. Meaning, if you're a good person, if you're good at getting people to achieve successful outcomes, you're good at building relationships. That's being a good human being. It's also being a good salesperson too. But why is it that when we're in those types of conversations and we build this trust and that's the focus of the whole process. And then we get to the point where the negotiation's supposed to happen, I was taught to basically change personalities. To go from caring about that individual's outcome and our mutual satisfaction within it to, hey, you know what? I'm going to start lying to you now. I'm going to focus on my own outcomes.

(16:06):

And in many cases, if you look across the sales community, they're being taught techniques that were taught by former FBI hostage negotiators, which seems really, really weird to me. I mean, anything that you are doing in a negotiation, you don't get to tase the person and drag them to jail afterwards. That's not what the negotiations that all of you interact with in your normal day-to-day lives are like. We need to have relationships with these people. That conversation, that negotiation is the beginning of a relationship, not the end of it like so many of us think. And so that's when all of this started. I was thrown into a negotiation where I walked into a room and there was a whole procurement team filled with expert negotiators, and I was terrible at it, and I accidentally just threw up my cards face up. And what happened was a great relationship, great trust, great understanding mutually. And when that customer came back to buy more, came back to renew with us, come back to expand. When individuals went to other companies, it made the whole relationship and the mutual value go way up too. So that's the way that I think about it is why do we need to change personalities? We shouldn't. We got to stop thinking like FBA hostage negotiators and go back to being human beings because that transparency and that humanness begets humanness.

Bright Dickson (17:33):

I love that, Todd. And the image as you've been talking that I've sort had in my head is like it is sort of changing from this idea of we're competitors sitting across the table arguing with each other to we are sitting on the same side of the table at the problem and trying to solve that just as people. And I love that image.

(17:54):

In our next segment, we're going to talk about how do you really negotiate successfully? And how your emotions impact negotiations and what do you do when you're in a negotiation and it's not going the way you want? We'll lead right back. Negotiation can be such a powerful tool in your finances and in your life because it helps to resolve conflicts, to maximize the value you're seeking and critically, to build relationships. So Todd, why do most people, and I'm going to include myself in this, I am a negotiation weenie sometimes not on everything now that I think about it. But in things like buying a car, I am intimidated by that process. Why do most people think negotiation is so difficult? And how do we get better at it?

Todd Caponi (18:50):

Well, one of the things that we joked about when we opened the conversation was that I'm a nerd, of course, but one of my nerderies is this idea that we repeat history. And as a result, I'm really deep into the history of business, the history of sales. I've got a collection of books and magazines and other things like telephones and stuff from the late 1800s, early 1900s here. And there was a quote from a guy named Thomas Herbert Russell in 1912. And so I know 1912, it's 112 years ago, but he had said something that cracked me up. First of all, you hear the term that buyers know more nowadays. You hear that all the time. Well, that was actually a quote from Thomas Herbert Russell in 1912. Talking about the rise of catalogs, the rise of advertising, and what would we need to have these face-to-face negotiations? What would I need to even talk to salespeople anymore? All the information's right there.

(19:53):

But what he talked about was this, and I'm going to read a quote from his book in 1912. Hopefully, that help people understand just your mindset. His quote is this, "The knowledge of buyers has increased. They are no longer disposed to pay what is asked of them unless persuaded in their minds that their prices are regulated on some sound basis." Meaning, we almost can't help but think that I could be getting a better deal if there's flimsiness in the way that the conversation begins. I mean, you wouldn't go to the grocery store and you're buying celery or whatever and go, "Hey, you know what? I need 10% off." They'd go, then don't buy as much because prices are established and nobody thinks to negotiate stuff like that. And I think that that's part of the mindset here is just to have a clear understanding of what levers drive the way that you think about everything that you do and what you care about.

(20:51):

And when you establish it on some sound basis and you lead with that confidence, but transparency, like, hey, here's what I don't care about. Here's what I do. Here's what drives my interest, here's what doesn't. If you've got that understanding walking in and you can share that card space up in a genuine human way, you'd be surprised how that actually relates to what you just said, Bright. That instance where I accidentally threw my card space up and magic happened, it was a group of us sitting at a table trying to figure out how we mutually come to a successful conclusion with both of us. We're basically negotiating cards face up, they're negotiating their own transaction with us. And we could do the exact same thing when we throw our card face up. I think that's the mindset, clear transparency and have an understanding of what you care about and what you don't.

Bright Dickson (21:43):

Yeah, that's really interesting. Follow up question for you, Todd, maybe two, I'm going to add a little extra spice in here. When is it okay to back out of a negotiation and how do you do that?

Todd Caponi (21:57):

When we talk about where the origins of negotiation came from and the origins of where so many of the thoughts, the theories, the discomfort with what it's like to be a negotiator come from, it was at a time when the negotiation was essentially the peak of the conversation. Where you're negotiating and then you're done and then you go, and that was the case for many, many years. To the point where if there was dissatisfaction on the part of the buyer, what are they going to do? Are they going to write a letter? Are they going to call an 800 number? I believe that in today's world, the one big change that's happened, there's really two, but number one is so much of what we buy is only the beginning of the relationship. So that negotiation is not the peak. It's merely an early milestone on the path to having a long-term relationship where there's maybe more purchases made, there's renewals, there's that type of stuff. So that's number one is it's no longer the peak of the relationship, and I think that's an important consideration.

(22:59):

The second piece of this is today's world. We're in this feedback economy, aren't we? Where the ability for individuals to share their experiences, to share the pros and cons, I mean, there's reviews on everything we do by and experience. We've got the ChatGPT and the AIs of the world that are exposing everything. I just believe that we can no longer think through this lens of let's get the back steal and move on or through the opposite, which is let's just give everything away, get the deal and move on, or get this transaction done and moved on or get this negotiation to move on because that has long ranging consequences in this feedback economy.

(23:41):

And so when I think about, hey, when is it right to move along and how do you do it? It's funny, even in my own business, so speaking and teaching, I had a client that came up and reached out. We started talking and I started with, hey, listen, because I know. You know sometimes the ability for individuals to invest in that sort of thing. So I started by sharing a range.

(24:06):

And just said, "Hey, before we get too deep into this, based on my understanding of what you're trying to achieve here, the investment here is probably going to be between X and Y. Now, if that's way off of your understanding, can we talk about that now versus later?" The term sticker shock has never been associated with anything good in the history of humankind. And so I did that and they were like, "Whoa, yeah, yeah, Todd, that's a lot more than we are anticipating." "Hey, I appreciate you sharing that, and I'm hoping that we can build our business up to where in a year we can come back to you." And what just happened? There was no wasted time, there was no wasted effort. And sure enough, a year later, phones are ringing. We've got to play the long game and make sure that we're doing business or doing transactions or having negotiations that lead to us both feeling good about it. Even if we do walk away. I mean, again, the truth will prevail, lead with that transparency, and it becomes so much easier to walk away. And you should feel better about it too.

Brian Ford (25:12):

Yeah, I like that. So Todd, in addition to being invited by companies around the world to speak about transparency and negotiation, you also, as you mentioned, teach workshops, one of which is called Transparent Negotiations. And in that you outline a framework for negotiating and explain the importance of implementing four levers. So first, can you explain what these levers are? And second, tell us how can this be applied to our personal and financial lives?

Todd Caponi (25:42):

Essentially, the four levers are the core of what I teach, and they're so easy. I mean, it's designed to be head slapping. I remember years ago being in an airplane, remember the old SkyMall catalog?

Brian Ford (25:56):

Oh yeah.

Bright Dickson (25:56):

Love SkyMall.

Brian Ford (25:57):

Yeah.

Todd Caponi (25:58):

Exactly. I miss it.

Brian Ford (25:59):

Me too.

Todd Caponi (26:01):

But in the magazine, there was this two page spread in every one, and it was for this negotiation class, and it was two and a half days long. But basically it told you a lot about, oh, they touched their nose, they're lying, all that stuff. I think that's crazy. What transparent negotiating is, I'll just teach it to you right now, it'll take two minutes.

(26:22):

Essentially, every for-profit company in the world, your pricing model, your growth, everything is driven by four things. Number one is how much do they buy from you? So volume. How much product services, seats, licenses, whatever. The second thing is how fast they pay. The faster they pay, better. The slower they pay, not as good. The third one is the length of commitment. So how long they commit to your products, technology, services. Longer, good. Shorter, not so good.

(26:57):

And then number four is the timing of when they actually sign or buy or do what you're talking about them doing. If you're able to predict that, that's better unpredictability, buy whenever, not as good, because predictability drives your ability to resource, drives the ability for investors to predict all of that fun stuff. And so, in a business sense for you to be able to walk in and say, "Hey, listen, based on our understanding of your business, the pricing is probably going to be in this X, Y range like we talked about earlier, and it's based on how much stuff you're going to buy. And by the way, it's also based on pay upfront net 30 and a minimum of a one-year commitment." You lay that out. When you propose it, you make sure it's clear.

(27:43):

And then when the negotiation happens, when they're asking for all the stuff they normally ask for, which is, "We need a discount. But we need net 60 payment terms. Oh, I don't want to commit." Like, all right, cool, let's talk about it. Let's be a human being and understand what drives that. And then go back to the four, right? Like, "Hey, listen, you need a discount. Cool, let's see if we can get you a little closer. Buy more. You'd earn a bigger discount. Pay faster, commit longer. Or that fourth one, help us predict our business. Those are the things we're willing to pay you for in the form of a discount."

(28:16):

And again, that's cards face up. That's like Thomas Herbert Russell's quote. It's your pricing, your product, your structure is based on something that is based in a firm sound footing. And what happens there is confidence. That confidence begets confidence, and you end up having a mutually successful outcome. Now, I look at that the same way in all of your day-to-day dealings when you're negotiating. What matters to you?

(28:42):

So if you're buying something, for you to be able to share, like, "Hey, listen, here's the things that drive what I care about. I don't need this much. Here's how I'm expect to pay. Here's how long I'm willing to commit, and this is my timing." And to be able to throw that out there. The people that are selling to you or you're negotiating with, they will try to align to those because again, every business, they want their customers to buy more, pay faster, commit longer, help them predict. Everybody who's buying something wants to commit to buying as little as possible, pay as slowly as possible, commit to the shortest period of time possible. And sign whenever the heck they want. And you can get alignment right out of the gate by sharing those and having a mutual conversation about it.

Bright Dickson (29:24):

I love that, Todd. That's so interesting. And as you were talking, I was sort of thinking back to what you were saying about transparency equals predictability. And what I also hear you saying is that that predictability equals confidence, and that's what builds the relationship over time. And that relationship can drive business, but also sort of get you what you want in the end and over time, and I think that's so powerful.

(29:50):

Thank you so much, Todd, for coming on the show. It's been so great to have you, and I really feel like everyone can benefit from reading your books and attending your workshops and learning from all you've got to show us and tell us.

Todd Caponi (30:04):

Well, thank you. Yeah, I'll leave with one last thought here too. Is, for anybody that hears the word sales and they get a little grossed out, I joke that when I met my wife, she went and talked to her sister. So she was hanging out with her sister and she's like, "Hey, I'm dating this guy". And her sister's like, "Oh, what does he do?" And my wife said, "Well, he's in sales." And her response was, "Ugh, gross."

(30:29):

I would just encourage everybody to take a step back and realize that sales is just influencing others to do something different than they were doing today, tomorrow, and trying to be a guide, trying to be a help, trying to let them achieve successful outcomes and doing it through the lens of providing a service. I would argue that we're all in sales because we're all influencing others to do something different. Even if we're parents, we're selling. If we come at it from that lens and do it cards face up, your relationships will be stronger, those outcomes will be better. And, you'll end up finding that the advocacy for one another goes up too, which plays and wins that long game. So don't think about this through the lens of sales. Think about it through the lens of life, because you're all doing some form of selling. You probably don't even realize it.

Brian Ford (31:22):

I completely agree. I love how you actually just bridged the gap to parenting because again, in every facet of our life we're selling, we're influencing, and I think what you've had to share is fantastic.

(31:35):

I just wanted to end too, Todd, with something that caught me that I learned that I thought was interesting. I definitely pride myself on being optimistic, positive, let's go team, even with my kids. And I love how we started this podcast off, and one of your things was leading with negativity. And I was like, wait a minute. Who did we bring on the show today? What's going on here? But it makes sense. You backed it up with research. And so it's so fascinating that when we're online, we're reading those negative reviews first. We're also a little like, "Hey, what is this?" If it's all five star reviews, I will agree with that just anecdotally with your research. And so leading with what might be wrong or leading with the elephant in the room and all that is to say leading with honesty. What do you know? It actually works. So I found that very liberating, and I appreciate your thoughts on that.

(32:27):

So thank you so much. We appreciate your time. We appreciate your stories, Todd. I personally learned a lot. If you'd like to take a deeper dive into the importance of transparency and negotiation, please visit Todd's website. It's just his name, toddcaponi.com, which is T-O-D-D-C-A-P-O-N-I.com.

Bright Dickson (32:57):

That's it for this month's episode of Money and Mindset with Bright and Brian. Thanks again so, so much to our guest, Todd Caponi. If you've got questions for Todd, please send us an email at AskBrightAndBrian@truist.com. Thank you for listening, and thanks to you as well, Brian.

Brian Ford (33:14):

Yeah, thanks, Bright. And Todd, thank you for your insight and expertise. If you want to hear more discussions like these, please subscribe and show your support by sharing the podcast with someone else.

Bright Dickson (33:25):

We have our entire podcast, episode lineup, and many, many other resources and tools just waiting for you at truist.com/money-mindset or just Google search Truist Money and Mindset. We'll be back soon with another great topic on ways you can boost your financial confidence. See you all next time.

Speaker 1 (33:58):

This episode of Money and Mindset with Bright and Brian is brought to you by Truist.