Leadership skills that can help you with work and money (Part 2)

Bright: (00:11)

Welcome to Money and Mindset with Bright and Brian, a podcast that explores how good financial habits and positive psychology can help you live with more joy and confidence. I'm Bright Dickson, Truist's resident expert on positive psychology, and I've dedicated my career to helping people find their purpose on and off the job. I'm here with my pal and teammate Brian Ford, the Head of Financial Wellness at Truist, and an expert on all things money. How's it going, Brian?

Brian: (00:38)

I'm good. We've got another great show in store for our listeners. We're back with Jeremy and Jenni of the Truist Leadership Institute. They joined us last episode to talk about why leadership matters and how we can improve our leadership skills, whether you're in your career or with your family. If you haven't already, I'd encourage you to go back and listen to part one of our conversation. But as a refresher for now, I just want to restate the definition of leadership that Jeremy and Jenni shared with us last time, just to kick things off. I know Jeremy mentioned leadership is the art and science of creating an environment that inspires.

Bright: (01:17)

I love that definition and I think it gets at why leadership is so important and worth talking about for two whole episodes. Good leaders can be better communicators who are more open to ideas. They're able to help motivate others to be flexible and adapt strategies to new challenges that come up. Plus, as we talked about last time, they also tend to make more money.

Brian: (01:41)

That's right. We've already touched on how growing in leadership can also help you and the people around you grow in more confidence with your finances. And today we'll be diving into a bunch of other tips that can help you cultivate leadership qualities in yourself.

Bright: (01:56)

I can't wait to get back into it. Let's bring in Jenni and Jeremy.

Brian: (02:07)

Jenni, Jeremy, welcome back to the podcast and thanks so much for joining us again to share your expertise on leadership.

Jenni: (02:14)

Thanks, Brian. Great to be with you again, Bright and Brian, and we had a great conversation before, we're so glad to be back.

Jeremy: (02:21)

It's awesome to be here. We really appreciate the opportunity and looking forward to jumping back into it.

Bright: (02:26)

Awesome. Last time we left off talking about biases that can sometimes get in the way of us making good decisions as leaders, as humans, and as people who make financial choices daily. I wanted to pick back up today by talking about other potential roadblocks that can keep us from making the right decisions. And specifically I want to talk about how certain emotions come into play as we think about the relationship between money and leadership. I think this will be a good way to explore some tips for our listeners who want to start putting some strategies together for developing their own leadership skills and putting those into practice. Jeremy, let's start with you. My question is about fear. How can fear hold us back as we try to become better leaders and take more control of our lives?

Jeremy: (03:18)

Fear can be so powerful. On some levels, it can be debilitating, just shut us down. In other levels, it can maybe give us a boost of adrenaline and light us up for a little bit, but not for a sustainable period of time. And when you think about money and how so many people have a fear about money, a fear of making decisions about money, about investing it, about spending it, about not spending it, there's so much emotion that comes along for the ride with money, as you all know and you talk about in every episode. And fear is one of those things that, let's talk about it from the leadership perspective. If I'm afraid, if I walk into a situation and I'm afraid and I'm not aware of it and I don't own it, I'm probably going to be reactive. I'm going to be in that fight or flight mode and I'm likely to either just overpower people in the room or perhaps if I'm really afraid also I could be in a Pollyanna-ish denial because I don't want to face it.

What we find is that the best leaders are able to... It's not that they're not afraid, that's okay. It's okay to be afraid. It's natural and normal to be afraid. The best leaders, the ones that are the most courageous, the ones that are the most confident are able to look at that fear and own it and just say, "Hey, I'm scared about this. I'm unsettled about this. This makes me uncomfortable." And then not stop there, then to say, "Okay, and with that discomfort, I wonder what that's about and what inside of me might be showing up here and what is my opportunity for growth?" Back to the growth mindset, "I am afraid and I don't know if I'll have all the answers. And I know that if I go through this and particularly if I can go through it with other people and collaborate with them and inspire them with that environment I'm trying to make as a leader, then we're going to figure this thing out together."

And when we start to flow from that type of perspective, that's really tough to stop and so much healthier and so much more attractive than coming in just hot to the situation and either shut down by the fear or shutting everybody else down because you're overpowering them.

Jenni: (05:20)

I think it's more natural for us to remember the feeling of fear and react or move away from it than it is for us to remember what it felt like when we moved through fear and had a more positive experience. And then if we remember that we can step forward into it the next time. As you talked Jeremy, I was remembering yesterday I had a client call who I had in coaching the day before, and we talked about this person's natural response to react during a situation of fear with sarcasm and the impact that had. This person has a lot of power and freedom honestly to be that way, but we talked about the damage that it does to relationships. And I got this call and he said, "Hey, Jenni, I had to call you because I had this big meeting and all the people were there and I had to do the thing that I didn't really want to do. And I had this impulse to be sarcastic and to say all these things that I didn't say any of them, and I just did the transaction and I just moved through it."

He was calling to tell me about his, "Good behavior," but what I said was, "How did you feel?" And it was really magical. He said, "I felt great," but he hadn't taken the time to notice that doing what he needed to do and being who he needed to be in the face of fear, being that good leader and moving through it well in an aware, conscious way, instead of being reactive, it actually felt good. And I believe, and I know scientifically he's more likely now that he noticed the good feeling at the end to repeat the behavior next time.

Jeremy: (07:03)

And how powerful is that for him and his journey, his health, his physical health, mental health, emotional health, huge win there. But then think about the people in the room, what happened to them and what happened to whatever they were trying to accomplish together. Everybody wins by him making that intentional decision. Such an awesome example.

Brian: (07:21)

Agree. One thing that Bright and I have discussed in the past is how our feelings and beliefs about money, they come from somewhere. And the same thing is true of our emotions. In order to move forward, we got to figure out the origin of all these things. And I want to keep pulling at this thread of fear that we're just talking about. Jenni, that fear that sometimes holds us back as leaders, where does it come from?

Jenni: (07:46)

In our work with leaders, we actually go all the way back to childhood during the years of the development of a person's personality, like six, seven years old, really early and help people reflect on how they learn to be. A young person's job is just to survive and hopefully thrive in their environment. And as little kids, we all picked up on ways we needed to be, to be accepted in that environment. Early on for me, I learned that it was really important to be helpful, and I would eat my vegetables and I would help my mom. And I just learned it was a good way to be. And we all have experiences and learn ways that we need to be, but at times it doesn't work out or it seems it doesn't work out. And we developed this other belief that we just aren't measuring up in some way.

We're not good enough to be a part or to be loved or accepted. And it starts just that simply just that young and then that what we call programming, those beliefs just stay with us. And I can see evidence of that in my own leadership today where I mentioned in the other episode I might want to be over helpful and I have to understand where that comes from. That very early fear of not being accepted, of not fitting in, of not being good enough. And this was a way that I learned to be, to try to combat or overcome that way of seeing myself. It takes a lot of effort toward noticing what I'm thinking, how I'm being, and then effort to shift that. And as I said before, instead of helpfulness a better way for me to be is offering empowerment, connecting with others, hearing from them what their growth goals are and supporting those.

Jeremy: (09:37)

Jenni, I think you're spot on with a lot of those elements and with money in particular, when I think about the childhood programming that goes into money and the relationship with money, and certainly for myself, I didn't grow up with a abundance of money. There is some scarcity involved there and that absolutely shows up into how I view it, how I relate with it, how I spend it, how I think about it when I spend it or don't think about it when I spend it.

All those things are still in the mix and I think that it's really important for leaders, for everyone, and I think that's part of what the great mission of this podcast is about, is being able to help people get clear about their relationship with money and how they came to be the way they are about money and the way they think about it and the beliefs and even emotions that they have about it and then what they want it to do for them in their lives. And if you can start to get some clarity around there, then you got a chance at managing your relationship with money instead of it managing you. And I can tell you for a lot of my life, it's managed me in ways that aren't always productive. And this is a cool conversation.

Bright: (10:43)

As you guys were talking, I was thinking about money is a great platform I think for us to move from children to adults, it is part of moving from a child to an adult regardless of what was going on for you as a child to have success with whether you've got to move into a really adult mindset, you don't really have a choice, you've got to do it. And listeners of this show have probably heard me say this before, but I think it's worth noting again that when we're talking about emotions, all emotions are information, that includes fear. Your fear is telling you something.

It's not just an experience you're having, an emotion you're feeling, it's telling you something that's important and that's why it's so critical to identify what's at the root of that fear, just like you were saying. And once we've identified what's behind our fears, where they came from, maybe having that understanding of how I got to develop some of the beliefs I have, like you were talking about Jenni, once we've identified that, what's next? What are some of the things that our listeners can do to explore that fear and manage it more effectively, especially when it comes to taking care of their finances? What do we do with that?

Jeremy: (11:58)

I think one of the things to do is just to be open to the growth and be open to, "Hey, I'm going to make some mistakes. I am a little nervous about this. Maybe I'm a lot nervous about how I'm investing this money, spending this money, not spending this money going on this trip, buying this car, buying this house." All these different decisions that we're making, there's a lot of unknowns with those. And there could be multiple right or correct or tactically sound answers, and that can be overwhelming for people. I think it's important to be okay with the fact that, "Hey, there are lots of different ways we could do this." Let's get really clear though about what do I want this money or an investment to do. I'll give you an example. When my wife and I moved into the house where we currently live, I splurged a little bit on the AV situation.

The audiovisuals, put some music stuff throughout the house and whenever anything goes wrong with that system, it's a very triggering moment for me. I'm like, "I spent too much money on it and now it doesn't work." And Liz, my wife, is constantly going, "Dude, it's technology. Sometimes you got to reboot something to do something, it's okay, let's be a little resilient here. And also remember the joy that this music brings our family. We have music playing all the time throughout the house. That's part of our culture, I guess, and what we love. And for 15 years we've enjoyed that. And yes, you invested some money in that and it's given us an experience that we like and we enjoy." And really what we're talking about there is not necessarily your life purpose, but there's a purpose to that investment. What is the purpose of that investment?

And most of the time I get to enjoy that. And if I get clear about the why, why did I invest in that and what is it hopefully doing for us? And then that calms down some of the fear or the anxiety around it and it allows me to just be much more clear about, "Yeah, I don't have to be afraid of this and I don't have to be triggered because it's not working today because that's just life sometimes. Let's move through this pretty, fairly simple problem honestly, and certainly a privileged problem to have. Let's fix the AV and it's going to be okay."

Jenni: (14:11)

I had an experience recently in challenging my financial beliefs. My husband and I have bought a new house and we have been married for a long time, pretty conservative with our finances, pretty aligned with them. And this has been a big deal for us and how to handle the transactions of selling and buying and how to save or invest.

There's a lot of big decisions, and I've just realized, actually, I'm realizing as we're talking through some of our tension is related to beliefs that come from just the way we grew up. They may not be sound financial decisions, and I'm so glad we have a team of advisors around us who help us to think about how to make decisions not only from a values and beliefs, the way we grew up, what our dads have said to us, but our dads are 80 and really they're awesome and they're wise, they're part of the people who are advising us. The others, the certified financial planners and other folks that we trust, it's important to have people even in these decisions to challenge beliefs and widen perspective. You all are making me think even now about these experiences in the last few months.

Brian: (15:22)

It's good. I'm enjoying this conversation. Such valuable information, good conversation. Look, in our next segment, we're going to open up our inbox and go through some leadership questions our listeners submitted for Jenni and Jeremy. That's coming right up.

SEGMENT BREAK

Bright: (15:49)

On our last episode, we asked listeners to email askbrightonbrian@truist.com and send us some questions on leadership for Jeremy and Jenni. As a reminder, you can always write to us at that address. Brian and I love taking listener questions, and it's also just a good place to share feedback or suggest ideas for future episodes. For today's episode though, we've got a few questions from listeners that Brian and I want to ask you, Jeremy and Jenni, are you all ready?

Jenni: (16:16)

Yes, let's go.

Brian: (16:19)

Here's question number one from a listener named Christina who writes, "I really enjoyed hearing Jeremy and Jenni talk about how leadership growth happens internally and how good leaders don't necessarily have to be a certain personality type. With that said, I think many of us also recognize good leadership when we see it. I'm curious whether Jeremy and Jenni can share examples of good leaders, either people they've known personally or from the world at large." What do you all think? Who are some leaders you look up to and what makes them succeed?

Jeremy: (16:53)

It's interesting to think about different leadership traits and styles. And in fact, it corresponds to a paper that our director of research here at the Leadership Institute, Dr. Cheryl Flink, and one of our senior consultants, Dr. Chris Smith and Dr. Sarah Coley, we had three people at are on our team work on this. It's on executive presence and it's talking about what is executive presence and is it a real thing? Is it a made up construct? You can read the paper and find out more for yourself, but it turns out that it's a made up construct. However, there are leadership attributes and leadership components that show up in people that make people think, "That's it. That's executive presence."

And a lot of it comes down to confidence, clarity in the way you communicate. I think being a great listener is something that we've certainly taught for a long time here and realize how difficult that skill can be for a lot of people. And for me, leaders that find a way to really connect, to really be dialed into everybody and everything around them, and then again, create that environment where people are connected and they're united and they're aligned and they're excited and they're energized. When leaders are able to foster that thing, that to me is a special attribute. And the best ones that I've seen are able to really connect authentically with other people and then take that connection and leverage it for them to do something special.

Jenni: (18:22)

I would say Jeremy, the words that you're saying, remind me of the one word that pops right into my mouth, which is balance. And the best leaders have this balance of introspection and awareness around them of listening and talking, of questioning and knowing, because we talk about curiosity, for example, a great trait, but a leader who's just only always curious and has no thought. It's just this picture of balance. And I think followers are attracted to leaders who are in balance in every way, even work and play, work and rest, a lot of different things that seem like opposites or polarities. When people find a way to bring those seemingly opposite things together and live them in balance, they're easy to follow.

Brian: (19:15)

Karate kid. Balance Danielson.

Jeremy: (19:17)

He's back. I love it.

Bright: (19:20)

And as you all are talking, I was thinking about my current leader, who I really, really like and I really, really like working with her. And the two words that popped into my head about her are honesty and empathy that she doesn't beat around the bush and saying, "Here's all of what we have to do," and it's a lot and it's demanding and there's a lot of ambiguity, but she's so deeply empathetic about what it's going to take to really get there and what some of us are going to have to give up in order to make it happen. But she keeps us focused not only on the bigger picture, but also on supporting each other through it. And I think that's really inspirational for me and helps me look at the bigger picture and understand a little bit more about what's going on.

That was a fun one. I really loved hearing what you guys were saying. Here's another question from a listener. Paul in Charlottesville writes, "I was recently promoted to a leadership position at work." Congrats Paul. "However, I find that I'm so nervous about doing a good job with my new role that I'm reluctant to delegate tasks to my teammates, and I feel like I have to take it all on myself to make sure I'm doing a good job. What advice do you have for people who struggle with trying to do too much?" Jeremy, I'll throw it to you first. What do you think?

Jeremy: (20:35)

First of all, Paul, good on you for recognizing that. I think that's very insightful to understand that that's happening. That's the first part of it. And now you got to decide what you want to do with that. And I would say first of all, get clear about the outcomes that you're after. And if part of your role, and this is what I believe and part of what we teach, part of your role as a leader is to empower the people around you and to raise them up and help them develop their skills. If and when we're not delegating, we're not doing anybody around us any favors, and in fact, we're probably doing ourselves quite a disservice as well as the people that we're leading. Because think about is it sustainable? Just straight up, "How long do you want to be in this role?"

If it's six months, okay, maybe you can make it, but if it's six years, you're going to burn out if you're trying to pull everything on yourself. This model that you've got going is not going to sustain you for the long haul in this role or in success to be able to take on something else in the next role. You're not doing yourself any favors, and you're definitely not doing your team any favors when all you do is micromanage or do it yourself. And what I found to be helpful are a couple of things. One, clarity. What is the expectation? What do we need from this individual on this team to be successful? And if you could be really clear about what the task is, it can make delegation easier. And then on the back end, there's got to be some accountability.

Accountability for, "Hey, you nailed it. You did great. Let's celebrate that." Or accountability for, "This part of it could have been a little better. And here's how we shore that up." I've seen a lot of leaders who are like, "I just don't trust so-and-so, I don't really trust that they've got it." Then identify what is the gap in trust? What is it? What is it specifically? What are the behaviors? What are the things that this person is doing or ways maybe that they're thinking that you're observing? And then let's get really specific about, "I need to see this and then I'm going to feel a whole lot better about delegating." And then if we do that with clarity and then accountability, we got a better shot at lining all that stuff up, which helps your teammates that you're leading win and helps you be way more sustainable in the game.

Jenni: (22:41)

I would add a touch of just encouragement that this is very natural because we are affirmed for accomplishing tasks, and it's a very natural journey and leadership to think, "I need to do more tasks. I need to do all the tasks and the way that I'm doing them is the only way to do it. And if someone else does it won't be like I do it and it won't be right and it won't be good." And then that's the path to becoming overwhelmed, overcommitted, and really not a great leader. It's a path to burnout.

And as we've talked about before, those behaviors are all anchored in a belief of, "Only I can do it well," or, "Doing it is the only way I can create value," or some other belief. And I would encourage peeling back like an onion, peeling it all the way back beyond the feeling of overwhelmed, beyond all the behaviors that you're doing to why, what's the belief you have about this? Because if you can shift it from, "Only I can do it well," to Brian, like the value question, "If I can produce this awesome level of results in the whole team, wow, we can produce so much more." And if we shift that belief to growing others is valuable, our behaviors shift and the results explode.

Bright: (23:59)

And I'll just add, I think as I've been thinking about this and growing around this, the real task of leadership is delegation. Otherwise, all organizations would be just one person and they're not. And really honing in on this delegation thing is really big. And Paul, I would encourage you to, as we were talking about fear just a little bit earlier, go in and think about what is that thing that you're really afraid of? And as Jenni said, what are the beliefs that are driving that fear? And then see is that actually accurate to what's going on? It could be that it's accurate and there is a valid fear that's in there. And in that case, you've got to address it, like Jeremy was talking about. It could also be that it's leftover from a previous time in your life and it's not really accurate to the situation that's going on right now, but whatever's driving that, you got to get in there and identify it and then treat it just like you would anything else. You got to get in there, identify it and deal with that, make a plan.

Brian: (24:59)

We've got one more listener question to get to Patricia in Memphis writes, "I'm interested in leadership development but don't know that I have the money to pay for a formal training course. What are some affordable ways that I can invest in leadership training for myself?" Jenni, what have you got for this listener?

Jenni: (25:19)

There's so many things that are available now from podcasts like this to books and resources just all around. And I would say think about an area that you want to develop and then go look for those resources and use your time, I think that's another thing. Commit to using your free time for that kind of growth. Journaling is a great way to get at what are those central areas of growth that would be important to me. And sometimes it seems like it's just so big. Leadership is so big. And if I start writing about, "Where do I feel confident? Where do I feel strong and great in my leadership today? Where might I want to see things grow or shift or change?" And just write about that and journal and reflect on that. It will help to give a direction and then so many resources that are free that are available for growth.

Narrowing down the focus and then pursuing the resources. One other tool that I just love and I have to talk about which fuels leaders in their journey of growth is the practice of gratitude. I just believe in it so much and it's a discipline. And the way I learned about it was every 24 hours and actually within 20 minutes of sleep, a way to wind down and settle your brain is to reflect on the day and think about things that you're grateful for. It could be something really simple, laughter that we shared on the podcast today or a taste of something that was just really special, time with a friend, whatever, just something simple. And then just allow my mind to marinate on that, to reflect on that and feed myself. And I think resilience tools like the practice of gratitude help fuel us to be ready for the discomfort that's necessary for the growth ahead in our leadership. This would be a couple of things I would suggest.

Jeremy: (27:13)

I think you're spot on, Jenni. And Patricia, you're living in a great time to be able to take advantage of some things like, I don't know, 50 years ago would've been harder to come by. But check out TED Talks. All the great thought leaders in our industry, they have TED Talks that are free and you can start to unpack different core leadership principles. There are plenty of elements out there if you look for them that you can use to learn and grow. And I love Jenni's idea about, "Watch that TED Talk and then say, okay, how am I feeling afterwards? What am I taking away from this journal?" And see what comes up and let that be part of your guide.

Bright: (27:47)

Jenni, Jeremy, I think those were really awesome thoughts. I also think Patricia, if you're really trying to get into the leadership game, use the people around you and ask them what they think you can do to improve. Ask them what they think you're already good at. Just go ahead and jump into that growth mindset stuff and get a little uncomfortable. And a great way to do that is to ask others for criticism because in my experience, you will get it. People are generally pretty happy to share criticism and they're pretty happy to share praise about your strengths and that good feedback. And that's a great way to start out.

(28:31) Jeremy, Jenni, I think we could spin off a whole other monthly podcast talking to you both about leadership and a million other things. This has been so much fun and we've been so lucky to have you on to share your really awesome insights. We are out of time for today, but at the end of every show, Brian and I usually like to ask each other for some of our top takeaways or highlights from the day's conversation. Brian, let's start with you. What did you learn about leadership today?

Brian: (29:01)

I'm going to go back and not only listen to this episode, but the previous one, this will be another one that might be a one that I nudge or even incentivize the kiddos to listen to. But for me, I enjoyed the conversation about childhood programming and how many of our beliefs and emotions they're formed at just an early age. I like that. I want to go back and just contemplate that a little more. And then I just added one right now because when Jenni was talking about gratitude, I'm like, "Yes, I love that," but I hadn't thought about it as a leadership practice and I hadn't thought about it as far as a nightly routine, and I hadn't thought about it as a resilience tool. Those were just wonderful things for me and I appreciate that. Those are a few things that I think about. But let's start with Jenni and then we'll go with Jeremy. What are a few top takeaways for the two of you?

Jenni: (29:55)

As I shared, I was really thinking and learning real time as we were applying what I know well this model of beliefs, behaviors, results to some recent financial decisions that my husband and I have made in buying the house. While I think about leadership and I think about all the things that I've been bringing to the podcast, I don't think as often about the impact of those on my finances. And I really appreciate you all bringing those two topics together and helping me see more clearly the importance of a variety of perspectives to advise and influence the financial decision making that we are in the midst of right now. Thank you for that.

Jeremy: (30:37)

I really love this conversation and I love the work that you all are doing on this podcast, and it's been a lot of fun to be a part of it for these last couple of episodes. And I think for me, there was a big reminder about emotions. We pay a lot of attention to them in the work that we do here at the Leadership Institute.

And even with that, I can still minimize them or forget about them and just coming up close and personal with the fear that can be around money and money decisions and what that can do, really the destructive nature of that in the moment and then behaviors. It's a good reminder for me to just process that and think about it and then find a way to create a little space between stimulus and response and be able to make an intentional choice. And that goes for money, it goes for my mindset, like your podcast is labeled. It goes for all of those things. I get to choose if I want to and if I do the hard work to make that happen. And this was a good reminder for me on that.

Bright: (31:39)

Thanks, Jeremy. Thanks, Jenni. I think my top takeaway is also around gratitude. And Brian and I have talked before about gratitude as a financial strategy and a financial tool. It can help with keeping you from spending and understanding the abundance you already have. But I think Jenni, you're exactly right that it is a leadership strategy too and helps you understand what others are bringing to the table, what you're bringing to the table, the luck that you might have and something. And it's a really powerful experience. And I also just want to say I'm so grateful to you guys, Jenni and Jeremy for being on the podcast, but also I just realized that I've known both of you now for five years, and I'm so grateful for that and for our friendship and for being teammates for so long too. It's really a huge, huge thing in my life. Thank you guys. And Brian, you too, you're in there too. I'm grateful for all of those relationships and all of the good things that you bring to me in my life.

Jeremy: (32:37)

We're grateful for you too, Bright. Thank you.

Jenni: (32:39)

Thanks, Bright, and thanks Brian as well. We have loved the time. It's refueled us, I can tell.

Brian: (32:46)

Good. I'm so glad.

(32:55)That is it for another episode of Money and Mindset with Bright and Brian. We appreciate our friends, Jeremy and Jenni at the Truist Leadership Institute. Thank you for giving us some great pointers on how we can grow as leaders. If you want to learn more about their work at the Truist Leadership Institute, including how you can access their services yourself, you can visit truistleadershipinstitute.com. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please support the podcast by subscribing on the podcast platform of your choice. And maybe just give us a rating, leave us a review. We love it. Thanks so much for listening, and thanks as always to you Bright.

Bright: (33:33)

Thanks, Brian, and a big thank you again to Jeremy and to Jenni. A reminder that you can email Brian and me anytime at askbrightandbrian@truist.com. Send us your questions for future episodes, suggestions for topics you may want to learn more about, or just general feedback. We love to hear it. We'll be back next month with another episode, but until then, you can always find great Money and Mindset articles, tools, and other resources online at truist.com/money-mindset, or just search "Truist Money Mindset," online. You'll find us. Thanks for listening, and we'll see you next time.

Brian: (34:19)

This episode of Money and Mindset with Bright and Brian is brought to you by Truist.